Blesta Unbranded License For Sale

[Alex]

Hey Ken,

I'll take this bit by bit here, but I think I should start with saying that I think you entirely misunderstand my position, my business needs and my definition of maturity.

 

What is the difference between flippers and resellers?  Aside from terms of use, absolutely nothing.  And that was the point.  A flipper buys a license specifically for the intent to make money.  It has absolutely nothing to do with their evaluation of the product if they never intended on using it does it?

A reseller buys a license specifically for the intent to make money, and that has nothing to do with their evaluation of the software or intent to use it themselves, but rather it's market demand and potential profitability. So, while I think I see where you're coming from, I don't think you've made a clear distinction here.

I don't think you've addressed the fundamental point which I've made, which is that most of these don't appear to be "flippers" (or resellers, for that matter) but people who didn't find the software fitting to their needs. I did make the point that maybe we should appreciate what few flippers have been identified, because I'm not entirely convinced that their actions are anything but good for the community. But, I'm clearly playing devil's advocate here as I don't have all the insight necessary to make that statement with any real authority. I just don't see them as having any major negative impact on Blesta.

 

Why do you think your license was only $99 to begin with?  You can't possibly expect to be an early-adopter paying a fraction of the price and expect long term polished features on the month of release.  I wouldn't anyway.  Someone asked why I didn't buy it at the promo price, I wanted to know what I was getting into first and didn't care about the money.

Everyone is entitled to their own approach and methodology, and I think both are fair in this case. It's wise of you to be cautious, but others would rather jump on the opportunity to get what they need for $99, knowing that they could sell the license for maybe a small profit if it doesn't work out. But, it's not fair to negatively categorize those who take the latter approach and decide to sell because it doesn't work for them. This will only discourage those potential customers from returning to Blesta when it is more mature, as Paul has made clear he is aware of by his public response(s).

 

At the end of the day you have to choose a product that works for you but if any of the competing worked for you I'd have to question why you moved in the first place.

My company never launched a public product offering which used WHMCS, Hostbill, ClientExec, etc. I have tested some of these extensively, as I have with Blesta, but our initial launch (which hasn't happened yet) will be using Blesta. However, the security issues surrounding "the others" provided us with enough incentive to not use them, and I suspect it would serve as incentive for existing customers of "the others" to switch over to Blesta.

 

In regards to maturity I guess that is in the eye of the beholder.  If having pre-fabricated modules that replicate what other billing systems already do are more valuable to you than security, nice code structure, in-house development, active QA with actual results and module system without limited features embedded into it's core then I understand.  But for someone like me I needed something tight and robust to build off of.  It was either something like Zuora with a 20k buy-in or something like this.  You all seem to forget which competitor just recently irresponsibly got hacked and had their customer database posted online.

So, it's funny you approach the topic from this angle. This is where it became infinitely clear to me that you are misunderstanding my point of view, and I'm sure Paul can confirm this for me. I really have no idea where you got these ideas, but let's get some facts straight:

1) I called Paul on the phone before purchasing Blesta and gave him a full interview with questions relating almost exclusively to security.

2) I'm a Certified Web Application Defender ( http://www.giac.org/certified-professional/alex-stanford/135828 ) with nearly a decade of experience as a PHP/MySQL (the foundation of both Blesta and most of the systems you refer to here) developer.

3) If security were not a concern I would not be using Blesta

4) If a plethora of modules which work identically to major systems like WHMCS was my requirements, I would have never purchased Blesta in the first place.

5) I would highly prefer a limitation of scope over code quality.

6) To this day I'm actively purchasing additional Blesta add-on licenses and implementing it for even more businesses.

With all of that said, I stand by my statement that Blesta is immature. It's a brand new, entirely rewritten version of the software. There is much room for improvement in terms of being feature-complete and user-friendly, but the foundation is outstanding and I have good faith it will mature quickly.

 

This is just my perspective from my business, I know everyone has different needs.  But I guess the point is that maturity is subjective.  I've not had any kind of stability issues.  Any that I have read have been cPanel related but we don't have it installed on cPanel.

If I meant stability was a concern, I would have said that. Maturity, at least for me, refers to how well tested, broadly used, feature complete and aged a piece of software is. Blesta has proven to be quite stable and secure in my testing.

 

One more thing to add in response to the amount of available licenses for sale and cost.  Supply and demand.  What happens when you have an over abundance of anything?  Prices drop as availability increases.  When I needed a license which was not long ago only one was available and he refused to take anything under 185 even though he listed it for 175.  It was much easier for me to buy direct and avoid the hassle and risk of dealing with a private party.

We're talking about dozes of licenses here, not hundreds or thousands! If proper demand was in place, this wouldn't be considered an "over abundance". Just because only one person was selling when you were looking doesn't mean that anything more than 1 licenses available is an over abundance. Furthermore, a product with very high demand almost never suffers from concerns like this. This is really more evidence of my hypothesis being accurate. If more "flippers" had purchased during the $99 window wouldn't you have had more options to choose from? I think it's because the people who are now selling hadn't yet made a decision as to whether they would use the software, because "flippers" would have been happy to sell you a license for $75 profit.

I this we just had a bit of miscommunication here, because for the most part I think we see eye-to-eye on more of this than it would seem by reading this thread.

Cheers,

Alex

[Ken]

What I am telling you is that we have not seen any stability issues of any kind.  I understand that their modules maybe going through some QA.  But I don't even see what you're comparing Blesta to in terms of maturity unless it's the software suites you said you can't use for security reasons?  Anyone can flip and sell with the intent of making a profit but what I am trying to drill into you right now is that because they can't sell their promo licenses for a profit it is not necessarily a reflection on the quality of Blesta.  I chose to buy direct and there was only 1 available license only a couple few ago here in the forums.

 

I don't know how I can make it anymore clear.

[Alex]

what I am trying to drill into you right now is that because they can't sell their promo licenses for a profit it is not necessarily a reflection on the quality of Blesta.

 

I'm not debating that, I've only said that it is a reflection of the current demand for Blesta licenses. I've not implied any lack of quality on the part of Blesta, because I don't believe Blesta lacks quality. However, I do think Blesta is immature -- in the sense that the developers of Blesta themselves would like to have v3 more feature complete and have more third-party extensions. That will come in time, primarily because the software is of quality. But, some fundamental shortcomings (such as support for configurable options on checkout) have been identified and are being worked on for v3.1 -- this is evidence of the immaturity which would inspire some would-be Blesta users to sell their promo purchased licenses. But, the fact that it's being worked on is evidence to me that the developers are listening to the users and working in the right direction. It's really not uncommon for people to have a knee-jerk reaction like this and sell their license without having the foresight to see the potential and fundamental quality. I've managed to have this creative foresight many times, and I think Blesta will prove to be another successful instance of that.

 

I do not confuse maturity with quality, and I ask that we drop that misconception here. I am very happy with the quality and stability of Blesta, but that doesn't override the reality that it is immature. Scope is a direct competitor of secure, stable and high-quality software, so it makes perfect sense that Blesta would lack some functionality in order to achieve it's superior foundation.

[Ken]

I don't know Alex you said right in your own words that it's lacking stability and flexbility a couple posts above. 

 

With as much code as they have made available to us, I'd consider it more flexible than any other option today within it's respected market.  Their modules and extensions market does need to mature as it's brand new.  I think we've both concluded that we're happy with it and won't be adding to the new stock pile of all 2 or 3 licenses being sold privately. 

[Alex]

I don't know Alex you said right in your own words that it's lacking stability and flexbility a couple posts above. 

... That's really nitpicking. Can't we stick to facts instead of using minor technicalities out of context to invalidate one another? Blesta v3 lacks proven stability in that it has had a fair amount of bugs and it's only been out a short time with limited use/testing, but what is there has proven to be sufficiently stable for me. It is my opinion based on years of experience that the Blesta v3 code is of high-quality, including security, especially when compared to the competition. If that weren't true then I wouldn't be having this conversation with you in the first place.

 

With as much code as they have made available to us, I'd consider it more flexible than any other option today within it's respected market.  Their modules and extensions market does need to mature as it's brand new.

I respectfully disagree. I have not the time to reiterate the shortcomings which have been reported and acknowledged by the developers. However, I will say that I do not think Blesta is yet as feature complete as it's competitors. It's also not yet as expensive, so that seems fair to me.

In terms of these judgements, how much experience do you have with the competing software packages? How many PHP/MySQL applications on this scale have you built? Myself, I've worked with ModernBill (years ago, before it got bought up) and I use HostBill, ClientExec, Ubersmith and WHMCS nearly daily while working with our resellers, clients and vendors. As for PHP/MySQL applications I've built on similar scale... dozens.

 

Try selling a dedicated server with Blesta, then try it with any of the aforementioned packages, without external modules for either, and then tell me if you think Blesta is more flexible.

 

I think we've both concluded that we're happy with it and won't be adding to the new stock pile of all 2 or 3 licenses being sold privately.

I actually just worked out an agreement with Paul to purchase 3 more licenses, with the plan to add 7 more soon. That should display my long-term confidence in Blesta.

[Ken]

The original point was that the few licenses being sold were by people who bought licenses at the promo prices with the intent of selling them for more cash.  The idea that they are selling them because they're unhappy is an illusion.  While I have no doubt in your ability or experience you seem to have them about mine or anyone who might disagree with you but that would be an assumption.  At the end of the day you seem to like Blesta since you have plans to continue investing in it. 

 

There is really nothing else to argue about.  Stay positive man!  

[Paul]

 Stay positive man!  

 

Stay positive, I like it!

[webguyz]

Still available :-)

[Alex]

While I have no doubt in your ability or experience you seem to have them about mine or anyone who might disagree with you but that would be an assumption.

I have no idea what you do for a living, what your experience is, or anything. I was simply asking in case it would help us to understand the fundamental reasons behind our difference of opinions. I have no reason to doubt someone I know nothing about -- I wouldn't even know what to doubt!

Cheers